@MBA: can we keep the implementation of issue 1035 and improve 91552 to fix this?

Provided I have a German Keyboard layout and can switch to Russian but my text
will be written either in English or in Russian:

- Tools - Options - Language Settings - Languages - Default languages for
documents -> English
- New Text
(The language bar shows Enflish thouh my Layout is German = Ok!)
- Type "This is English" (The formatting shows "English")
- Switch Keyboard Layout to Russian
- Type "Это русский язык" (The formatting shows "Russian")
- Switch Keyboard Layout back to German
- Type "This is English"
-> The formatting shows "German"

Can we make issue 1035 optional?

I see no bug here; the user shall change the way of using IME instead.
To enter text in French with English layout, you should configure IME
correspondingly, for Windows XP it would be:
Control Panel | Regional and Language Options | tab Languages | Details... |
Text Services and Input Languages | Add... | Input Language = French, Keyboard
Layout/IME = United States-International.
Then switch to French language with English layout and use it.
Of course, making the Language Guesser optional (adding a checkbox in Options)
would be nice, too.

I can't agree with aehrlich.

First, I already have THREE languages in my system (English, Russian and
Belarusian) and if I add the fourth, it wouldn't be very convenient to switch
between them. After all I don't use French very often. And what I should do if
there is a necessity to type in German (it happens sometimes)? Shall I add the
fifth language?

Second, OOo 3.x follows not the language of a document but the keyboard layout.
Just imagine: I set French for the document, then change to Russian (Belarusian)
and after that come back to (as I hope) French. But OOo sees not the French
language but US keyboard, and what should it (OOo) think? It automatically sets
the default English - not French!

Ye, now I see the George's point: he's on Linux where there is no input
*language* present (at least, in his flavour of Linux) and only input keyboard
layout is present ;-). We are keeping a small holywar on this topic at another
place, too.

There is generally no such stuff in today's global world as "language of
*document*". There are exceptions, of course.

> I add the fourth, it wouldn't be very convenient to switch between them
But how the h...l are you going to tell the word processor that "this word in
the sentence is in language1, that paragraph is in language2, those two are in
language3"? You have to have something referring to *all* the relevant
languages. For Windows, it is "language of input"; I don't know if there is some
equivalent in Linux. If there is none then some different approach should be
taken in Linux. And, actually, the right one would be not "lets limit the
functionality of OOo to the least common denominator between Linux, Windows,
Solaris, MacOS, ..." but to wrtie an input language switcher for Linux instead.
IIRC there were no keyboard layout switchers at the beginning of the life, either.

So my suggestion for improvement of backward compatibility is: introduce one
more choice "Default languages for documents" combobox: [autodetect]. If this
option is selected then apply the current functionality of the 1035 fix, if not
then fall back to OOo2.4- behaviour.

You've made a wrong conclusion about my PC, aehrlich. I'm on Windows.

Now I want to explain my position more clear. There are some possibilities to
resolve my problem without changing anything in OOo but most of them have big
"minuses":

A) Point: "You can add the second language with the same layout as the first one."
Minuses: 1) it is suitable for Windows only because Linux, as I know, follows
layouts and not languages; 2) it complicates switching between languages; 3) you
should add more languages even if you use the new ones 1-2 times a month.

B) Point: "You can add the second language with the same layout as the first one
and use an external software to remap shortcuts for language switching."
Minuses: 1) there is no such "universal" remapping software for different OS's;
2) it is suitable for Windows only because Linux, as I know, follows layouts and
not languages; 3) it complicates switching between languages even more because
it increases the possibility of shortcuts' conflict with other software and
OOo's extensions; 4) you should add more languages even if you use the new ones
1-2 times a month.

I support your suggestion, aehrlich, to "introduce one
more choice "Default languages for documents" combobox: [autodetect]. If this
option is selected then apply the current functionality of the 1035 fix, if not
then fall back to OOo2.4- behaviour."

But if you reread my first message here, you will see that I have already
suggested the same behaviour for OOo.

I completely agree with george_yves on this subject. I am currently switching
between workspaces that have different keyboard layouts (Danish / English (US)),
while writing my masters thesis in British English. 
It has taken me a couple of weeks to figure out, why OOo kept changing the
language of spellchecker, no matter how many times I told OOo the text was
British English. I've just been though the help file of the danish OOo 3.1 and
it explains no where, that OOo overrules the language settings in styles,
font-settings and standard document settings. 

However, I can acknowledge that for some users, this behaviour is much wanted. 

Therefore I support george_yves proposal, that it should be possible to enable
or disable this feature, either global or per document, or by choosing
"[Autodetect]"-language in the styles.

I have similar problems with this, i am changing the language for words,
paragraphs and the document all the time because the language automatically
changes particularly at the end of the document. 
I write in Italian and English(us and uk), often on the same document and often
changing form one language to another at regular intervals. I use my laptop
which is from England with an English keyboard, but when i am at my desk i
attach an Italian keyboard.
I don't want to change the windows keyboard language every time i change the
language i am writing in.

What would also be very very useful is a Language Layout view under
View>'Language Layout'. This would show me the different languages highlighted
in different colours SO I COULD SEE what was happening. Thanks.

I have just upgraded my OpenOffice version and will promptly uninstall the new
version and switch back to an older version because of this bug. I can see the
appeal for some people for the automatic change, but for a lot of people, it is
a nightmare that OpenOffice changes the input language to be equal to the
keyboard layout, since many of us write in multiple languages using a single
layout. For example, I normally write in French, English and Spanish using my
Spanish layout. With this new version of OpenOffice, the program keeps changing
the language of the text to "Spanish" even though I am writing in English or
French, just because I am using a Spanish layout. I can't write a proper
document because of the bug, it is extremely annoying. I am not sure when this
will eventually be fixed, I don't know how bug fixing works and how long it
takes. I propose, as have the others, that it be made optional behaviour, ie:
your can switch it on or off. I use Windows Vista.

No, OOo does not bind the language to the keyboard layout, it binds to the input
language. Windows allows you to configure the keyboard layout used for every
language.

If you want to write English texts in the Spanish keyboard layout, configure it
that way in Windows.

Yes, we must differentiate between keyboard layout and keyboard localization.
(In Vista, when setting up the keyboard layout/language, the first level chosen
is the language, and then the layout!).

The problem is, that the behaviour is not described anywhere in the help-files.
It could be considered normal behaviour, as many word processors apparently do
this, but somebody has to tell the user what normal behaviour is.

And lastly, there is a subset of the users who does not have a desire for this
behaviour and a subset who does. Why should the subset be forced to work the
same way as the other subset, when a simple checkbox (from the users point of
view) can alter the behaviour to the desire?

Why is it not possible to add an option (application- or documentwise) to enable
and disable the binding between written language and the keyboards language?

Did I write that it isn't possible? The mere fact that this issue is not
rejected proofs the opposite. But as the problem is just caused by an
unfortunate operation by the user(*) and can be avoided easily, the issue does
not have a very high priority. It might be a candidate for 3.3, but that is
still open.

(*) For me it is "unfortunate" not to use the means of the operating system if
they are present, and Windows allows to fix this problem easily, as I described.
Whether the OOo help file should contain hints how to operate Windows properly
is a questionable suggestion.

Hi mba - yes, you can set up multiple keyboards per input language for Windows
but the point is that, for a subset of people using multiple input languages and
keyboard layouts this is extremely cumbersome - sometimes I write in French
using a French layout on a Spanish keyboard, sometimes using a French layout on
a US keyboard, sometimes in English using a UK layout on a Russian keyboard,
etc... etc... this will depend on the text I am writing, on the external
keyboard I am using, and between what languages I switch for a single document.
Sometimes I need a character that is available on a different layout but it does
not mean I am changing input language! Of course I could go into "insert symbol"
or "create character" but I find it much more efficient to be able to quickly
switch layouts (without using my mouse) and directly type the character(s) I
want, without changing the language of the text I am writing. Before, OpenOffice
allowed this, the new version does not.

If I set up Windows to be able to correctly handle all permutations for all
languages I use (I have done so) it means I have potentially 20 permutations to
cycle through (by keyboard) or select (by mouse) - not efficient at all, nor
handy. I much, much prefer being able to manually tell OpenOffice what language
I am writing in a piece of text at any time, and for OpenOffice not to link this
to the Windows input language and change the language for me.

So, the point, again, that I and several other people are making, is that while
having Open Office match the Windows input language might be handy for some
users, it is definitely not handy for other users. It is silly to impose "one
way" of working with languages/keyboard layouts when there is no good reason for
it. OpenOffice used not to impose this way of working on users, it now does.

I (and I think several others) believe it should be made optional, so that those
that wish to can stick to the Windows input language management system (probably
those that do not use multiple layouts for each of a series of several
languages) (and that, anyway, is for those on Windows), but those that don't
want to, can manage the OOO input language separately from the Windows input
language.

I don't think that this is a spurious request, and I wish that, even though it
is clearly not your preference, you acknowledge that other people may have
another way and need of working with keyboards/languages than you do, that is
just as valid. Your suggestion that our issue is a result of "unfortunate
operation" by us, and that we can't use Windows properly, is frankly rather
insulting. I have tried the Windows Input language route that you suggest, and I
am sorry to tell you that it is no panacea, it just complicates and slows things
down further. It is also interesting that you seem to suggest the way Windows is
set up to handle input languages and keyboard layouts is necessarily an
efficient set up that everyone should be happy with. I beg to differ.

I have no problem with some people finding the current set up more efficient and
user-friendly than the previous one - good for them, but that does not mean it
is efficient for everyone, which is why, I hope that Open Office will make this
setting optional as soon as possible in one of its new versions.

Sure; again: depending on the necessary effort and what else will be on the to
do list this option will be added in 3.3 or later. This is what the target "3.x"
means.

I too find this deeply annoying. I want my document language to be independent 
of my keyboard. It was a mystery for a while until I searched for bugs as to 
why my language kept changing and it kept having a snit fit about "colour"

Your language in OOo does not depend on your keyboard, it depends on your input
language. Which keyboard is used for which input language is selected in the
system configuration.

I have two configured input languages: English and German. I have selected the
German keyboard for both of them. So switching from "English" to "German" in the
Windows task bar changes my input language and thus my OOo language, but it does
not change the keyboard configuration.

This is the proper way to do it, fixing that in OOo as is requested here is only
a workaround.

Dear mba,

I can't accept your point of view. Please re-read my first message in the topic
where I have described the problem:

"I set French as the language of the document and start typing in French.
Everything goes OK, then I change to Russian (Belarusian) layout(s) and type
some phrases. After that I come back to English layout to type in French but
after the first word the language of the document changes to English (system
default). Since that moment I can't use French dictionaries for spell-checking -
every time I manually set French and OOo switches automatically to English."

As you can see the real problem is in OOo3's inability to follow the language of
the text - it changes it according to the keyboard layout.

If you try to repeat my actions in MS Word or OOo2, you'll see that Word and
Writer2 follow the language of the text irrespectively to the keyboard layout.
When you changed that behaviour in OOo3 you ruined habits of a great number of
OOo users.

Again: OOo does not follow the keyboard layout, it follows the input locale.
Which keyboard locale matches the input locale is a Windows configuration matter.

In your case you should switch to "French" if you wanted to write in French, not
to "English". If you want to use the English keyboard layout for writing in
French, use the Windows system configuration to assign that keyboard to the
French input locale.

mba

Following your logics I should install ALL the necessary languages in my
Windows. Maybe you're right. But why I should complicate my work?

I type in several languages and in different combinations within one document.
For example, I prepare a scientific paper in Russian were I have to type some
sentences in English, French and German. And now compare the following:

1) In MS Word and OOo2 Writer I can have 2 (two) languages (English and Russian)
in my PC and every time I want to change the language of a paragraph I click on
the status-bar, choose the necessary language and continue typing until I should
change languages again.

2) In OOo3 I HAVE TO install ALL the necessary languages in my system then I
HAVE TO change languages in Windows and in OOo itself. Having typed 1-2 phrases
in French, I HAVE TO change languages in Windows and OOo to type in German then
I HAVE TO change languages in Windows and OOo to type in Russian, after that I
HAVE TO change languages in Windows and OOo to type in French, and so on and so on.

I am a linguist and sometimes I type texts, paragraphs and sentences in Turkish,
Dutch, Swedish, Spanish, Italian and some other western languages. And you
advise me to install all of them on my PC too? Don't you think that MS Word's or
OOo2's behaviour is more advanced than that of OOo3's?

> Following your logics I should install ALL the necessary languages in my
> Windows. Maybe you're right. But why I should complicate my work?

You can use it at least as a fix for your problem for now. I didn't deny that
fixing the problem in OOo perhaps could be a good idea. I need some more time to
think about the problem, so it might take some time.

The feature to follow the current system keyboard/language/layout/whatever
setting to set the language in a document/paragraph is reasonable - this is how
OO3 works and some users may appreciate it.

The feature to keep the language in a document/... as it is set independently on
any system setting is reasonable too - this is how OO2 worked and some users (me
inclusive) would like to use OO3.

But these two features together seem clashing.

What about this behaviour: When I *change* the system *keyboard/...* setting and
I *directly* start to *write* I get the system keyboard/... language in my
document/.... In all other cases (especially I *set* the *language* in my
document *manually* or *move* a cursor to some place and then start to *write*)
I keep the current document/... language.

Generally:

I think to set this automation optional (as some users propose) would save lots
of people lots of problems and time (this and other discussions inclusive).

To deduce the users' intentions from some system settings (e.g. the system
keyboard/... is set to Czech hence the user will write in Czech) is risky. I
usually use the Czech system keyboard/... to write English texts just because it
is possible (OK - it is possible elsewhere than in OO3 8) and I do not think I
do something wrong. I understand I could set my system to support the English
layout in the Czech keyboard but I just do not want to do this. The same way you
could deduce that because there is Microsoft Word installed in the system the
document shall be saved as a Microsoft Word document.

Whenever the arguments say "the user shall/have to do something this way" the
thoughts probably go the wrong way. There usually is more than one way to do things.

Yes, let users optionally set this automation!

As a English New Zealand user (similar to UK) I struggled to realise Windows was
confusing OO with an English US keyboard (but it had NZ as default..?!). Just
presenting the option would've informed me why OO was changing my language.

Got my vote. Personally I'll turn it off.

Hello, I have same problem. I would like to write in Rusyn language but Rusyn
input language is not defined in Windows. So I am using Russian layout but then
I am not able to use Rusyn spell check online as it is always automatically
switched to Russian. Please add an option to disable this automatic switch of
languages.

Now I have OOo 3.3.0 but the issue isn't still resolved. I still can't type in French using English layout. And it makes OOo less effective than MSO.

Reset assigne to the default "issues@openoffice.apache.org".