Issue 42835 - Expert fonts override roman font
Summary: Expert fonts override roman font
Status: CLOSED DUPLICATE of issue 79878
Alias: None
Product: gsl
Classification: Code
Component: code (show other issues)
Version: OOo 1.1.3
Hardware: PC Linux, all
: P3 Trivial (vote)
Target Milestone: OOo 3.0
QA Contact: issues@gsl
Depends on:
Reported: 2005-02-15 14:07 UTC by norbusan
Modified: 2008-07-07 17:15 UTC (History)
2 users (show)

See Also:
Latest Confirmation in: ---
Developer Difficulty: ---

Part of the screenshot exhibiting the effect of SMallCaps instead of roman (4.08 KB, image/png)
2005-02-15 14:08 UTC, norbusan
no flags Details

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Description norbusan 2005-02-15 14:07:24 UTC
I have expert font set installed on my system and made available to openoffice.
If I am using debina/sid with font config and fc-list gives me the following
fonts for Palatino:
Palatino:style=Light Italic
Palatino:style=Bold Italic
Palatino:style=Medium Italic
Palatino:style=Bold Old Style Figures
Palatino:style=Black Italic
Palatino:style=Small Caps & Old Style Figures
Palatino:style=Italic Old Style Figures
Palatino:style=Bold Italic Old Style Figures
Now if I select Palatino Roman font, I in fact get the small caps font. The
effect can be seen at
With the debian builds of ooo version 1.9.73 the same happens.
I tried the download version of 1.1.4 which seems not to work with fontconfig.
There everything works, but the expert font sets are NOT USED at all, this
making faked small caps.
Comment 1 norbusan 2005-02-15 14:08:27 UTC
Created attachment 22651 [details]
Part of the screenshot exhibiting the effect of SMallCaps instead of roman
Comment 2 michael.ruess 2005-02-15 14:21:21 UTC
reassigned to US.
Comment 3 ulf.stroehler 2005-02-15 15:09:28 UTC
norbusan, could you pls. provide a pointer where to get the "expert font set".
Thanks in advance.
Comment 4 ulf.stroehler 2005-02-15 15:10:45 UTC
Set target milestone to 'OO.o 2.0.1'.
Comment 5 norbusan 2005-02-15 15:20:14 UTC
Getting `free' expert font sets is difficult, because they have to be bought
from Adobe, Bitstream, or some other font source. The only option I see is the
following to prepare `free' fonts: I (or you) take the free ScOSF fonts
FreePalladio (from CTAN), rewrite the FontName in the afm and pfb file (with
fontforge) and then you use these fonts instead of the original Adobe ones.
Other options I don't see ATM.
If you need more information, help, I hope I can provide it.
Comment 6 ulf.stroehler 2005-02-15 15:39:25 UTC
Hacking the freely available substitutes is not my preferred approach for
various reasons.

Let's determin what this issue is about:
I guess you selected "Palatino", expecting "Palatino Roman" and get "Palatino
Small Caps", right? 
Or what are the real font family names stated in the AFMs, respective what are
the font fammily names OO.o displays?

Additionally, you probably are allowed to attach at least one AFM, as this was
the idea behind dividing a font into a metrics file and the font file itself.
Comment 7 norbusan 2005-02-15 15:49:56 UTC
The following fonts are installed:
FontName Palatino-Roman
FullName Palatino Roman
FamilyName Palatino

and pplrc8a:
FontName Palatino-SC
FullName Palatino Small Caps & Old Style Figures
FamilyName Palatino

I select "Palatino" in OOo and get for Roman (no BOld/Italic button pressed) the
small caps font, for italic and bold italic and bold I get the right fonts. When
I export the file into a pdf, I get the SmallCaps font and not the standard roman.

Concerning the afm: Can I send it wiht PM, I am not sure wether this is allowed
and I don't want to post them in a public forum, sorry. You can contact me unter
Comment 8 ulf.stroehler 2005-02-15 18:16:26 UTC
US:->HDU: Palatino-SC probably gets stripped to Palatino which results in mixing
it up with Palatino-Roman which presumably also got stripped to Palatino.

Can you perhaps provide a workaround for the time being until we have a fix? Thanks.
Comment 9 ulf.stroehler 2005-02-16 11:35:53 UTC
Hm, thought of this again and came to the conclusion that font family name
stripping is probably not the root cause. 
The issue is probably more related to the fontconfig api we use and the family
name and attributes we parse from there or not.

After adding pplrc8a.pfb and pplrc8a.afm:

fc-list | grep Palatino
Palatino:style=Small Caps & Old Style Figures
This is shown as "Palatino" in OO.o Writer m78.8875.

Hence the problem is that we currently don't parse the additional style info
provided by fontconfig which leads to the situation that we can not distinguish
between Palatino SC and Palatino Roman.

=>Enhancement (we had on our list anyway, dont't we PL?)
Comment 10 philipp.lohmann 2005-03-21 17:44:10 UTC
pl->us: The style names are now delivered to vcl; but please check if that
actually fixes the problem. The user could now select the additional style in
Format->Character, but still the small caps font should not be used initially.

fixed in CWS vcl39
Comment 11 norbusan 2005-03-21 18:19:08 UTC
Sorry, maybe I am too stupid, but how can I check this? I guess there are no
builds available up to now for the fixed version?!

Thanks a lot and all the best
Comment 12 philipp.lohmann 2005-03-22 09:02:27 UTC
norbusan: sorry, but you can't at all at the moment; the fix currently just
exists in the CWS vcl39, install sets of which are not currently available. US
will check the issue as soon as install sets exist. If you want to check now you
would have to check out and compile the changes yourself. Alternatively i could
send you libraries containing the change which you could copy into an existing
680m87 installation.
Comment 13 norbusan 2005-03-22 11:58:30 UTC
@pl: If you want I could try, but I cannot find 680m87 on the web. The latest
snapshot build is m84 (according to So if you want me to try, send
me the libs to and tell me where I can find 680m87.
Thanks and all the best
Comment 14 norbusan 2005-03-22 15:52:15 UTC
Hi pl!
I installed 680m84 and the new libraries and get the same effect: If I do *not*
select any style, then I get small caps.
Interestingly I cannot select the normal "Medium" or "Roman" style from the
Format->Character. Asking my fontconfig I get the following styles for Palatino:
Palatino:style=Light Italic
Palatino:style=Bold Italic
Palatino:style=Medium Italic
Palatino:style=Black Italic
Palatino:style=Small Caps & Old Style Figures

But in OOo the following are missing:
Roman, Medium, Medium Italic.

I suppose that Medium Italic is subsumed under Italic.
But The problem persists that I cannot select a Medium/Roman font without
getting SmallCaps. In fact if I only select Palatino from the drop down list,
type in some text, and then select the text, Format->Char I see that it is
selected as Small Caps & Old Style Figures Style.

So we are now at a level where it is working more or less, i.e. the Expert fonts
are recognized, but the problem persists, because no Roman/Normal font is found!

All the best

Comment 15 philipp.lohmann 2005-03-22 16:15:14 UTC
I'm not that surprised. Adding the style names wouldn't change the default
Comment 16 philipp.lohmann 2005-03-22 16:19:12 UTC
pl->hdu: i think that's an ImplFontCache::Get problem. Could you please have a
look ?
Comment 17 2005-03-24 14:32:51 UTC
HDU->HDU reminder: For a font request with an emtpy style name the available
font with "medium" style style should win...
Comment 18 norbusan 2005-04-09 17:14:33 UTC
Hi all!
Some new stuff, or better report on the current milestone m91. I have tested m91
with my fonts and found, that it is getting worse ;-)
First some explanation: There are three (maybe more) types of professional font
class 1a: SmallCaps&OsF, example: Palatino:style=Small Caps & Old Style Figures,
these fonts contain the Capitals at the right places, old-style numerals with
afm names "one" "two" ... at the position of the numbers, and SmallCaps with afm
names "a" "b" etc at the positions of the lower case letters

class 1b: OsF, example: Palatino:style=Italic Old Style Figures, these fonts
contain the Capitals at the right places, old-style numerals with afm names
"one" "two" ... at the position of the numbers, and normal lower case letters at
the right positions (difference to 1a: no small caps!)

Class 2: Expert sets, example: Minion:style=Regular Expert, but also
Utopia:style=Expert Regular, these fonts contain old style numerals with afm
names "oneoldstyle" "twooldstyle" .. at the positions of the numbers, Small Caps
with afm names "Asmall" "Bsmall" etc at the position of the lower case letters,
but now upper case letters.

So, I made tests with M91 and these three types:
class 1a and 1b now are shown correct on screen, are printed correctly, but NOT
correctly exported to pdf (interestingly! but true). The Expert font can not be
selected to get real caps or oldstyle numerals.

For class 2 I got very mixed results: None of it goes correctly to the printer
nor into the pdf files, so all of them just are not right. But Minion and Adobe
Garamond are displayed correct, while Utopia completely collapses and is
displayed in fixed font (in 2pt or something, unreadable). Here the expert fonts
can be selected for AGaramond and Minion, and correctly show caps/oldstyle nums.

So you are partly on the way to fixing it, but the there are still several problems:
- Parsing of the font names is still very problematic. Some fontnames just make
the parser go havoc (Expert Utopia).
- Printing/PDF making still is a real problem, definitely not usable
- Usage of class 1 variant fonts is not possible, while those of class 2
variants is usable.

Best wishes, and I hope I can help you a bit!

Comment 19 2005-09-21 15:36:17 UTC
Comment 20 ooo 2006-01-20 14:38:52 UTC
retargeted due to resource constraints
Comment 21 unixtowindowstolinux 2007-07-13 10:25:40 UTC
i don't see how you can ever succeed trying to map an arbitrary set of styles
into regular/italic/bold/bolditalic.

i think the proper solution to this problem is a 2-stage selection, where one
pull-down menu selects the font family, and a second pull-down menu then
displays all the styles available for that family. in this case, there are 14 of
them. Adobe InDesign on PC/Pac does exactly this. a more cumbersome alternative,
but still superior to the current situation, is to enumerate all family/style
combinations in one pull-down menu. Scribus on Linux does this.

at present, many, many high-quality, professional fonts are simply unusable with
OOo Writer. IMHO, fixing this should be a high priority.
Comment 22 nmailhot 2008-05-09 16:59:53 UTC
Very similar, if not a dupe of issue #79878
Comment 23 2008-06-05 14:56:38 UTC
Good point, this is indeed duplicate to the infamous issue 79878. That issue is more up to date and assigned to the 
right team, so it is best to resolve this one as the duplicate one.

*** This issue has been marked as a duplicate of 79878 ***
Comment 24 2008-06-05 15:00:56 UTC
Closing resolved issue.