Apache OpenOffice (AOO) Bugzilla – Issue 4624
Add individual margins on same page to Writer
Last modified: 2013-08-07 14:38:26 UTC
I noticed that you do not have any Word Perfect import ability, so I bypassed it by using RTF and MS Word files. I took a screenplay (about 130 pages) in Word Prefect, saved it as RTF and MS Word 97 files, and tried importing it into Open Office. I was glad to see the margins were actually maintained, since I have not been able to import Word Perfect files into Abiword, Star Office, or any other word processor without the margins all being reset (A screenplay uses several different margins, which change every few lines -- so consistant margins is a MUST in using a different word processor). However, there is a significant problem with the pagination. Both files (RTF and MS Word -- as saved by Word Perfect) created a new page every time I changed the margins. Is there any way to import files like this by keeping the margins intact AND keeping the original pagination (or close to it)? Thanks!
Reassigned to Michael.
No, there won't be a possibility without starting a new page. OpenOffice was not designed to have different page margins on one and the same page. In our philosophy it doesn't make sense to have such a weird feature, because you can reach the same thing with paragraph indents.
IMHO, this is absurd and short sighted. I have had MANY times where I have had to change margins a number of times on a single page -- not only in screen plays, but in business plans and in work I've done when I was teaching. It's a feature supported in Word, WordPerfect, AbiWord, and any word processor I've ever seen. By saying you can only use one margin on a page, you are saying, "As a writer you have to think the way we want you to think." Using indent and outdent can help in some ways, but there are many times where I've wanted to adjust margins quickly and easily to widths that weren't easily set with in/outdent. Another factor -- if you're writing a script, TV shows and film studios expect scripts written in specific formats. While some writers use special scripting programs to do this, others, like me, use macros to set the margins. These margins have been worked out to make sure we can work with the general time frame of 1 page being 1 minute of screen time. By taking this arbitrary stance, you are saying you want to make OOo hard/impossible for writers in this field to use. I realize resources are limited, but this attitude is the one thing that keeps me from using more open source software. It is the attitude of the programmer who is deeply involved in the code and sees the code and decides that the end user has no clue what he/she is talking about. As a user, I'm saying this is an important feature. You may not use it in your work, but I have used it in business, education, and writing. I wonder why AbiWord has this feature successfully working and OOo says it's not to be done? Another note -- After a long study, I found that AbiWord has a problem exporting files -- there was a bug forcing a page break after each margin change on some files. I have not yet had a chance to see if this is WHY OOo has this import problem, but with this attitude ("we have it set up to work this way -- do it our way -- we don't care what you as a user need!"), I will certainly put looking into this bug/problem on a low priority.
But it is of course NOT a bug (or defect), when the application does not meet someone's habits in editing texts... it is clearly a request for enhancement. And for those the QA is the wrong addressee, it is more for Product Management.
Add individual margins on same page to Writer Note: This might be also an issue for MS Word filter
started
Sorry, there is noc chance to get that done for Q.
halvaughan, No one was trying to insult you. It was simply stated that certain design decisions were made, and a reason for those decisions was given. The reason stated may not make much sense to you, but it was given with the intent of helping you use alternate functionality that does exist in OOo without the need for some fairly complex changes. There are two significant word processing programs that do not allow margins to be changed multiple times within the same page. One is MS Word. The other is OOo/StarOffice Writer. Your usage pattern may not reflect that of most users (far more use Word than Wordperfect), but that doesn't mean that they are crippled when using these programs. It doesn't mean that OOo needs to be hard/impossible for writers like you to use either. When I began using OOo, I kept being told how powerful the Styles and Formatting window can be and how it can make life so much easier for those changing formatting often. I didn't know how to use it or how nice it could be. So, I requested a tutorial for it. None existed. I have since learned how to use it to some degree (I'm sure that there is more I could learn to be more productive with it). I will try to write up a quick tutorial for you and post it here as an attachment. I hope it will help ease some/most/all of your pain.
Created attachment 34161 [details] Basic tutorial for Styles and Formatting.
Using the tutorial (explanation might be a better word) I just submitted, you could create various styles (margin1, margin2, margin3, ...) with very specific indents and spacing settings. Then, you could use them to quickly and easily apply formatting to a document and make it act as though there were indeed various margin settings on the same page. Since I have grown accustomed to using styles, this approach would seem far simpler and faster than changing margins multiple times in a document. Once you have the "margin" styles set the way you like, you can even make sure that they are available with any new document by creating a new default template that contains your "margin" styles. I hope my work and suggestions are of use to you.
After working with some other documents, I realized that there were some points I forgot to mention in previous comments. One point that I should have mentioned could have been in the tutorial/explanation of the Styles and Formatting tool. When dealing with a certain "style" it is possible to define what style will follow directly after it (the next paragraph, page, etc.). So, if "style 1" is always/mostly followed by "style 2," the definition of "style 1" can explicitly state that the next style will be "style 2." I don't work with scripts or screenplays, but I thought that according to what I have read this part of OOo's functionality might even make scripts easier to work with when using OOo. Another point is that if you are working on a paragraph, you can get a new line without moving to a new paragraph (and possibly a new style) simply by holding down the <Shift> button when pressing <Enter>. Many people are already aware of this, but it is worth noting in this context since one paragraph style might be followed by a different one. Finally, if someone could supply me with specifications for how a script should flow, and what the format should be like, I would be happy to create a template (or multiple templates if necessary) that could be included with OOo in the next release. Like I said, I haven't worked with scripts or anything of the sort, but I think that I could be of help if someone can help me. I'm going to post a document that contains a basic list of questions that I think would cover the possible differences between a script and a normal document. If someone would download the document, answer the questions, save it again, and post it here, I'll take it and make the promised templates.
Created attachment 34553 [details] Questions to Create a Script Template
*** Issue 78772 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Whups, my 78772 is indeed a dupe. It does contain specific ideas on implementing this as a UI feature that works with the Styles system, or outside of it in a way that would not otherwise break styling, so I encourage anyone working on the code to review it. ... Shift-Enter has two flaws here: The obvious one is user training, the less-obvious is that, in my "organization"'s use case, it breaks indentation for those trained well enough to actually be using paragraph styles for same. [My use case:] _Underlined_Heading_in_Contract_Document_ Paragraph containing terms should start indented to match following paragraphs... [The idea is that the heading or title line should not widow itself at the end of the page. There are some ways to correct for this, but most are time-consuming or relatively 'advanced' for nontechnical users.] It would be interesting to do some actual usability testing to see how often people (trained group and naive group) ever drag the margins with intent to edit the style -- I would guess that users expect horizontal margins to flow through the document, but are surprised when vertical adjustments hit more than the visible page. In fact, use of the vertical ruler to indicate the active page means (even at some ridiculous, unlikely zoom levels) a user will never, ever, 'see' the impact occurring across the style until it's applied, making the behavior pretty non-obvious until documentation is read. -- I *think* that's true now across all 2.x versions, perhaps a live preview of the reflow would at least hint to the user what they're doing to previous pages, albeit without resolving the basic problem? If the UI promoted styles as being a property of document objects (much as we think of a font choice as being a property of some text), instead of pages 'belonging to' relatively invisible styles... maybe casual understanding by the untrained would improve. Tough call, tough problem.
To grep the issues easier via "requirements" I put the issues currently lying on my owner to the owner "requirements".