Apache OpenOffice (AOO) Bugzilla – Full Text Issue Listing |
Summary: | sort order in OOo 'file open' dialog wrong | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Product: | General | Reporter: | Rainer Bielefeld <rainerbielefeld_ooo_qa> | ||||||
Component: | ui | Assignee: | frank.loehmann | ||||||
Status: | CLOSED WONT_FIX | QA Contact: | issues@ui <issues> | ||||||
Severity: | Trivial | ||||||||
Priority: | P5 (lowest) | CC: | frank.schoenheit, issues, lohmaier | ||||||
Version: | OOo 1.1 RC | Keywords: | oooqa | ||||||
Target Milestone: | AOO Later | ||||||||
Hardware: | PC | ||||||||
OS: | Windows 98 | ||||||||
Issue Type: | DEFECT | Latest Confirmation in: | --- | ||||||
Developer Difficulty: | --- | ||||||||
Issue Depends on: | |||||||||
Issue Blocks: | 12522 | ||||||||
Attachments: |
|
Description
Rainer Bielefeld
2003-08-01 19:04:05 UTC
Created attachment 8216 [details]
screenshot with wrong sort order
SBA: Component changed to Framework. Reassigned to Thorsten. The OpenOffice/StarOffice file-open dialog acts the same way, the windows-system dialog does (eg. Notepad -> file/open). The arrow points from the largest to the smallest file. Hi Thorsten, which WIN do you use? On my WIN98 System the WIN98 standard dialogues do not have any arrow to show the file order, and so all programs which use the WIN standard dialogues do not show any arrow. First something general: The normal use of those "short arrows" is from start > to end Example: scroll- slider The normal way I would use an arrows to show a sort order is: "My Way" A .......... Z First ...... Last From ....... To --> "OOo-File-Open-Dialog-Way" A ...... Z <-- I made some further tests concerning "arrow for sort order handling". "My Way": ---------- - NERO - Mozilla - Sort order buttons in OOo CALC "OOo-File-Open-Dialog-Way": --------------------------- - FileZilla - OE drafts folder - WIN Address Book No arrows: ---------- - WIN98 - IZArc To do it in the same way as WIN is _one_ argument, but there also is a lot of nonsense in WINDOWS, IMHO one nonsense is the use of the arrows in the WIN-Dialogues. Please also see the arguments in issue 18190. So I think we should have some more discussion concerning this affair before we do a final decision. CU Rainer Rainer: OOo behaves exactly as Windows (2k) does. (The wider End of the triangle represents the higher numbers or filesizes). Although this may not be perfect for all users, I think there would be at least the same number of users, who are ok with this (and would no see the sense in "your way"). BTW .. I never put any attention to this triangle and was quite surprised, that it is there. Created attachment 8432 [details]
screenshot MOZLLA
When using Win2000 or WinXP the pointer points from the youngest to the oldest file, from the smallest to the largest file,... both the same in the windows-system dialog and in the OpenOffice-dialog. So this one is not a bug. Ok, it's not a bug; let's call it a feature request... As far as I am concerned, WinXX doesn't set the guiding principle to all things. I'm using, alas, Windows all the time, and still the Windows way looks wrong to me. Is there a way to change this behaviour e.g by switching filenames? I am not so glad that all along status of this issue is set to WONTFIX - I think that it is not very polite to do that if a QA member saw reasons to reopen a bug. If anyone but me will change status ot this issue, I will get a little angry! Andre, please see: First we must decide: is that what we see an arrow, or is it a "swelling arrow" (I am not sure concerning the english word, we find it on the hot water tap). And for this decision it is absolutely not interesting, how it's handled in WIN. If it is a "swelling arrow", correct would be ^ A / \ Z A in the first line, Z in the last line. If it is an arrow: \ / A . Z A in the first line, Z in the last line. _My_ decision is, that the little thing in the "file open dialog" is an arrow, because in my software there are used very very many arrows, more or less no swallow arrows, but may be that other ones see that in another way. If we decide that it is a swallow arrow, no more discussion is required, every thing can stay how it is. If we decide, that it is an arrow, we must decide a second time: Then we see, that WIN is doing it _wrong_, and we have 2 opportunities: 1. We know, it is wrong, but WIN is so popular, that we can not do something aviant from WIN without worrying users. 2. We are doing things right and not like WIN and cange our standard. But actually, we have to decide: arrow or not? It does not make any sense to make further steps before we have not clarified this point? I request for arguments, and I think comment From Number5 2003-08-14 03:19 PDT guides into a good direction. Rainer Sorry for making you a little bit angry, but this is NOT a bug. This behaviour is used in lists for descending and ascending entries and has therefore implemented this way. :-( Hi Thorsten, what is the guideline which defines this use? Rainer Might be interesting to have a look on <http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=93772> Rainer Sorry to say, but I would vote for DONTFIX :). I guess if we go out there and ask 3000 users, then 2998 of them will not even know that there's such an icon, and 2990 of them will not even be able to name any other program which has such icons. Additionally, I strongly assume that 1501 of them will find the one direction more intuitive than the other, no matter which is "one" and which "another". Somewhat overstated, admittedly, but you get the idea. I could set this one to WONTFIX, again (which wouldn't be too imapplicable, since I am the responsible developer for the file open dialog). But I assume you, Rainer, would simply re-open it again? In any way, I assign it to the user experience team for evaluation (it doesn't make sense that TM owns it), but I repeat my recommendation for WONTFIX. If the symbols were something like o ° (a big bullet above a small one, and vice versa; 2nd version difficult in ASCII) instead of triangles, everyone would know what they mean. What about creating such icons? Wouldn't that be a solution? Hmm. Sorry, I don't really see how such icons are better comprehensible? Hi, I think Number5's Idea is to show al little listing: O big Nummber 1234120 o small Number 1 Sort order: starting with big number in first line. Another idea, let's collect those ideas here. Rainer Hi, let me summarize the intermediate result of the discussions here, in several newsgroups, bugzilla, with friends: - Most people completely ignore those sort order arrows (50%?) - some people like the WINDOWS way: ^ A / \ Z Arrow means: ascending sort order (30%?) - some other people like me think, that the WINDOWS way is not so intuitive and would prefer the MOZILLA - way: \ / A . Z Arrow means: start with "A" in the first line and end with "Z" in the last one(20%?) I think this shows us that there is absolutely no reason for quick action on something which is ignored by most people and so seems to be not so very important. It also shows that actually there is no optimum, if that sort order indicator would really be helpful, it would not be ignored by most people and discussed by the resting ;-) Let us take time (we have it) to collect ideas, and might be we will find something completely new and better than all we saw until now. I would be interested in information concerning usage in other OS than WIN and MAC. Rainer Despite Bielefeld doesn't exist, Rainer got me right ;-) (international audience, don't worry when you don't understand this...) The problem is: those triangles are mistakable; they can be taken for arrows as well as for increase/decrease indicators. My idea is to replace them by versions which symbolise one or the other meaning in a intuitive and non-ambiguous way. 1. better symbols for the "Windows way" a) Big bullets symbolise 'big', small bullets 'small': o (biggest, newest... file) ° (smallest, oldest... file) b) oriented to e.g. volume controls ___ \ | (biggest, newest... file) \ | \| ' (smallest, oldest... file) 2. better Symbols for the "Mozilla way" Use real arrows (something like ->) Maybe our solution will be known one day as the "OpenOffice way"? ;-) (perhaps Rainer is just one of THEIR tricks ....) the problem I have with 1a is that there is no (intuitive) correlation between "big circle" and "newest file". It could perhaps work for attributes such as size, but not for name, date, etc. > (perhaps Rainer is just one of THEIR tricks ...) Caution -- THEY are reading everything you write ;-) > the problem I have with 1a is that there is > no (intuitive) correlation > between "big circle" and "newest file". This is a general problem: what is a 'bigger' date? I reckon most people (including me) klick on the date sorting head at least twice to be sure they got it right. In issue 12522 some other sort order issues are discussed. Rainer If you want it automatically understood (with no need for interpretation), you could simply use A -> Z and Z -> A, or put the arrow under A Z (one way for ascending and the other for descending). I don't think many people could misunderstand this simple solution. I also think that "A -> Z" is a good synonym for all sort order indications. A Z \ \ >Z >A as used in the spreadsheet toolbar buttons, pls see <http://www.openoffice.org/issues/showattachment.cgi?attach_id=8428&file=sortbuttons.png> should be able to show the sort direction without any doubt, and a consideration 1. April 1932 is more or less "A" 13 Oct. 2003 is more or less "Z" should not cause problems. Another advantage of this solution is that this indicator can also be used for horizontal sort orders (where ever this might be used): "ascending sort order", is that from the right to the left or inverse? I am not so happy with the vertical arrows in example under "Serienbrief", I had to think about what those images want to tell me quite a while ;-) To use different arrow directions is no god Idea. A coordinate plane always looks like S ^ y ! s ! t ! e ! m ! -----> Temperature even when I want to show what happens in a system with descending temperature, no one would have to draw a coordinate plane like S ^ y ! s ! t ! e ! m ! -----< Temperature for such use. Rainer > as used in the spreadsheet toolbar buttons, pls see
Arghh! Sorry, but this is *NOT* the spreadsheet component, this is the
database access component!, which can be used in spreadsheets, texts,
drawings, and presentations.
The problem with the A-Z images is that they're quite large (they
wouldn't fit into the header of the file open dialog). If they're not
large, they would probably not be recognizable ...
In addition, A/Z needs to be localized - there are a lot of languages
where A and Z do not denote the first/last letter of the alphabet. But
this doesn't necessarily has to hinder us ..
> In addition, A/Z needs to be localized
That's an important argument what leads back to Number5's idea, but I
am a little afraid that some peole will think that
.oO
wants to tell us something about "points" and "O"s and not concerning
direction from small to big :-\
Rainer
I don't think so. Let them be points instead of circles; there is just no appropriate ASCII character. Everyone who has clicked at least twice on a sort header will have got it forever. Those who don't have no idea of a thing like sorting anyway... Huh? Why should this block issue 21783 (which is the tracking bug for ms interop)? I also agree with wontfix. But lets ask finally our user human computer interface expert. Hello Matthias, please decide about this issue. Thank you. OpenOffice.org Issue Tracker - Feedback Request. The Issue you raised has the status 'New' pending further action, but has not been updated within the last 4 years. Please consider re-testing with one of the latest versions of OOo, as the problem(s) may have already been addressed. Either use the recent stable version: http://download.openoffice.org/index.html or consider trying the new OOo 3 BETA (still in testing): http://download.openoffice.org/3.0beta/ Please report back the outcome so this Issue may be Closed or Progressed as necessary - otherwise it may be Resolved as Invalid in the future. You may also wish to search for (and note) any duplicates of this Issue that may have advanced further by checking the Issue Tracker: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/query.cgi Many thanks, Andrew Cleaning-up and Closing old Issues as part of: ~ The Grand Bug Squash, pre v3 ~ http://marketing.openoffice.org/3.0/announcementbeta.html I am no longer officially active on OOo. Please take over. wontfix. the "big part of arrow" (i.e. the wide part) is where the big parts (the bigger filesize is). This is consistent with GTK, Windows,.... whatever. If you don't like OOo's way, don't use OOo's dialogs. If you don't like your operating system's dialogs either, compile your very own version of OOo. closing. |