Issue 62675 - Numbered chapter styles behave erratically; hard numbers should turn to outlines when assigning heading style
Summary: Numbered chapter styles behave erratically; hard numbers should turn to outli...
Alias: None
Product: Writer
Classification: Application
Component: formatting (show other issues)
Version: OOo 2.0.1
Hardware: All All
: P3 Trivial (vote)
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: michael.ruess
QA Contact: issues@sw
: 54707 71664 (view as issue list)
Depends on:
Reported: 2006-03-01 12:16 UTC by nmailhot
Modified: 2013-08-07 14:42 UTC (History)
4 users (show)

See Also:
Issue Type: DEFECT
Latest Confirmation in: ---
Developer Difficulty: ---

Synthetic test case (8.68 KB, application/vnd.sun.xml.writer)
2006-03-01 13:04 UTC, nmailhot
no flags Details

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Description nmailhot 2006-03-01 12:16:25 UTC
With OO.o 2.0.1 (windows) I do not seem to be able to create numbered titles
reliably. Numbering gets applied randomly on every document load, the only fix
is to click on the add/remove numbering toolbar button but then the numbering
will change again on the next load.

Also applying a numbered § style on a line won't get the same results every
time. Sometimes OO.o believes numbering was disable before and refuses to create
the title number.

It's all a big time-consuming mess
Comment 1 michael.ruess 2006-03-01 12:42:12 UTC
Could you please add a document to this issue and tell where in the doc you try
to apply a heading number.
Thank you very much.
Comment 2 nmailhot 2006-03-01 13:04:13 UTC
Created attachment 34525 [details]
Synthetic test case
Comment 3 nmailhot 2006-03-01 13:06:52 UTC
I've attached a test case
Not sure if it's representative, I can't send the actual company documents and
their lifetime is a lot more complex than this one

Main problem is probably than when you apply a § style which specifies numbering
OO.o tries to keep other numbering styles applied, so you have two numberings
fighting for the same §
Comment 4 michael.ruess 2006-03-01 13:42:04 UTC
The paragarph "1. Foo 3" has a "hard" numbering. This will override the numbers
assigned via "Tools.Outline Numbering" dialog. Click the "Numbering off" button
(third in the toolbar) to correct this.
A numbering has been assigned to this paragraph BEFORE it got the "Heading 3" style.
When a numbering is assigned to a paragraph formatted with a heading style, it
will be alsoassigned (as autonumbered outline) in the mentioned outline dialog.
Comment 5 michael.ruess 2006-03-01 13:46:47 UTC
Comment 6 nmailhot 2006-03-01 14:12:22 UTC
1. Numbering off removes all numbering not just the hard numbering

2. when I apply a § style to a line I expect the § style to be honoured
regardless of previous styling
(it's very easy for example to start a new chapter after a bullet/number list,
so the initial line before you apply "title" style already got some residual
numbering attribute)

3. like I wrote this behaviour is devilish because with all the hard/soft
numbering interactions when OO.o reloads a document it does not always make the
same numbering decisions it did at save time (so all titles may be numbered when
you save but not anymore when you load the document, because you've been
clicking on the numbering button to correct things but actually styling was all
right so when you reload your manual "corrections" get in the way)

4. also even if the technical behaviour was right (it isn't) the ergonomy is
terrible. You think this is a small problem because you have a one-page doc but
with 100-page documents with cascading numbering effects (amplifying software
and user mistakes) this is killing me
Comment 7 michael.ruess 2006-03-02 12:06:01 UTC
ad 1)
this behaviour is normally intended. If you have a paragraph with valid outline
numbering (the numbering type is applied to a style in Tools.Outline dialog)
this button will influence the settings for the affected level. This is desired
by the community (see "Numbering" specification on

ad 2) 
This is truely a thing that we should enhance. It might be more desirable to
turn the "hard" number into an outline number when changing the style of a
paragraph into a heading paragraph which is applied in Tools.Outline dialog. We
will handle it in this issue.

ad 3)
I have not seen a number turning into a wrong thing when saving/reloading a
document. We should have a real situation to reproduce the problem. I would
requst you to file this into a new issue (because there should be listed only
one problem in one issue, following the issue rules/guidelines). If you
experience a situation where there is an inconsistency in numbering, state that
in a new issue and attach a document if possible.

ad 4)
Comment 8 michael.ruess 2006-03-02 12:11:37 UTC
MRU->OD: when there is a non-heading paragraph which is numbered, the number
should turn into an outline number when a heading style will be applied to the
The "competitor" also does this, and as described by "nmailhot" it is much
easier handling and will meet the users expectations.

FL, do we need a spec change for this?
Comment 9 frank.loehmann 2006-03-03 09:43:15 UTC
FL: I think this is a goog idea. Would this change the appearance of old
documents? The attached demo document has no outline numbering turned on in the
outline dialog, even if turned on by using the numbering button on a outline
paragraph like "heading 1". Do we want to change this for OOo 2.0.3?
Comment 10 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2006-03-06 12:00:00 UTC
The given document shows the following inconsistency or misuse, which seem to
confuse the user:
Paragraph style 'Heading 1' is assigned to outline level 1. Thus, the internal
numbering rule 'outline' is applied to this paragraph style. The 'outline'
numbering is the numbering rule, which is edited in the 'outline numbering'
dialog. But, this paragraph style has an own numbering rule set - namely
numbering rule 'Numbering 1'. Thus, the 'outline' numbering rule is ruled out.
The same holds for paragraph style 'Heading 2' and 'Heading 3'. In such a
situation nobody - I say nobody - can except, that the appliance of one of these
paragraph styles to a paragraph will result in a paragraph, which is numbered
with the 'outline' numbering rule.
In general:
If a paragraph style is applied to a paragraph, one user expects that the
paragraph keeps its own numbering attribute, because she has assigned this
special attribute to the paragraph. Another user expects that the paragraphs own
numbering attribute is deleted and the one of the applied paragraph style is
used instead. Such a discussion can be made for every paragraph attribute. If
you consider, that paragraph styles are also hierarchically organized, this
discussion will become even more complex.

In this special situation I proposed the following change:
If a paragraph style, which is assigned to one of the outline levels and which
has *no* own numbering rule set, is applied to a paragraph, the 'hard' numbering
attributes of paragraphs are deleted and thus, the numbering attributes of the
paragraph styles are applied. The following paragraph attributes are reset at
the paragraph:
- Numbering style
- Numbering - Restart at this paragraph
- Numbering - Start with
This change is only performed, if the user applies a paragraph via the user
interface. Thus, it will not change the appearance of 'old' documents.
For me, the target of this change should be OOo 3.0 and this change should be
treated as an enhancement.

-> nmailhot, MRU and FL - please give your comments.
Comment 11 nmailhot 2006-03-06 13:06:19 UTC
I'm not sure I've followed the previous interventions - they're a bit too heavy
in office suite techspeak for me.

My needs as a stupid user are rather simple: when I apply a § style I expect the
§ style to overwrite the previous local formatting attributes. If I really want
the § to be special I can re-apply specific formatting manually after setting
the style.

In particular when I apply a title style I am moving to a higher level than I
was before, so whatever manual formatting occured at a lower level in the
previous document part is moot at this point

I hope you have less problems understanding my message than I have reading yours ;)
Comment 12 nmailhot 2006-03-06 13:12:32 UTC
As a general case OO.o is trying much too hard to preserve attributes and
forgets a lot of them are the result of user mistakes, inheritance from previous
unrelated lines, cut & paste from other documents, etc

Too a point it's sometimes easier to do a cut/paste as plain text than try to
sort the mess whithin the OO.o UI (even if that means removing manually the
numbering the cut&paste transformed in real characters)
Comment 13 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2006-03-06 15:21:07 UTC
Sorry, that I confused you by my previous statements. Give me a second try:
- The outline paragraph styles 'Heading 1', 'Heading 2' and 'Heading 3' - you
name them 'title styles' - have a set numbering rule. Thus, the outline
numbering rule isn't applied for these paragraph styles.
- Deleting 'hard' attributes of a paragraph, when a paragraph style is applied,
can be discussed controverse. Normally, the 'hard' attribute are deleted -
exceptions are the numbering attributes and the break attributes.
- For the given case - the numbering attributes - I'm partly on your side:
delete the 'hard' numbering attributes, when the outline paragraph style hasn't
got a own numbering rule. I think, I have to revise my propsal. I will discuss
with MRU and FL, which are the conditions to delete the hard numbering
attributes, when a outline paragraph style is applied.
Comment 14 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2006-06-23 13:34:15 UTC
adjust target milestone to OOo 2.x
Comment 15 michael.ruess 2006-11-20 11:46:42 UTC
*** Issue 71664 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Comment 16 enmane 2007-07-16 15:09:16 UTC
Could you add 79486 to this one also as I think they are related?  There is an
example document in that issue also that has temperamental behavior - this
results in loss productivity of the user and great frustrations.
I'm not sure I follow.  If I create a new document with a clean slate then are
you saying there is "hard" numbering assigned to the Heading styles?  If so,
then that isn't right.  The "hard" numbering should only be applied if the user
goes to tools->outline numbering and _then_ decides to have hard numbering
applied to those styles.

I've created documents with only 2 types of styles - heading and default - and
OO still seems to screw up the numbering sequence.  I use the Heading styles as
described in the OO help for creating paragraph sequences and it still gets

I realize that sometimes that this is a user problem but I have to tell you that
I'm very methodical and thorough when trying to demonstrate a problem/bug and
this behavior is extremely odd/counterintuitive/disruptive.  I also don't follow
your explanation of the discussion as to what is occurring.  It's not so much
the terminology but there are details that you know that are not included in the
discussion such as, 
-what is "hard" numbering?
-what is "soft" numbering?
-how are styles automatically linked to outline styles?
-which styles have numbering rule sets automatically applied?
-which styles have outline styles automatically applied?
These details are what create confusion and it would be good to define any terms
used before discussing them.  Your effort is to be applauded - thank you.
The end result is that there is an inconsistent behavior that I can attribute to
OO solely.  
  I've spent hours/days (and several paper revisions) trying to figure out how
OO functions and each time changing my thought process only to realize that OO
is inconsistent and that no matter what I do, I can't get the behavior that is
expected or desired.
  The problem may just lie in the fact that we're creating documents with pages
upon pages and several layers of numbering and maybe these haven't been tested
well enough - it's possible.
Comment 17 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-09-11 10:23:05 UTC
accepted to this issue for OOo 2.4
Comment 18 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-11-06 14:18:18 UTC
Together with MRU I've decided to introduce the following change:
If a paragraph style is applied to a paragraph or a group of paragraphs, the
numbering attributes, which are explicit set at the paragraph/paragraphs, are
clearer under one of the following conditions:
- the paragraph style has explicit a certain numbering style set, or
- the paragraph style has explicit "no numbering" set, or
- the paragraph style inherits a certain numbering style from one of its parent
styles, or
- the paragraph style inherits "no numbering" from one of its parent styles.
Term "numbering attributes" denotes the numbering style attribute, the "restart
at" attribute and the "restart with" attribute.

This solves the described defect, because a paragraph style, which is assigned
to a certain outline level of the outline style, has explicit set the build-in
outline numbering style.

The implementation of this solution is in progress in cws sw8u10bf01
Comment 19 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-11-06 15:35:38 UTC
fixed in cws sw8u10bf01 - changed files:
Comment 20 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-11-20 11:08:43 UTC
OD->MRU: Checked in internal installation set of cws sw8u10bf01 - please verify.
Comment 21 michael.ruess 2007-11-29 13:37:29 UTC
Verified in CWS sw8u10bf01.
Comment 22 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-12-03 14:54:49 UTC
*** Issue 54707 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Comment 23 michael.ruess 2008-04-01 08:57:17 UTC
Fixed in OO 2.4 -> closed.